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The Involved vs. The Apathetic -- odds anyone?
Frank,
You can get solar for a few bucks. try passive solar like insulation , solar screens or radiant barriers. They pay off very fast and you can do a little at a time.
The wind and PV systems are a bigger step but even those can be one step at a time. You can do a 1K grid tied system and add from there. I did my own in 2001 and have added to 2.5 KW now.
I didn't have net-metering but talked until we all have it now in the area. There were no incentives but I never wanted any. My system has already oaid for itself and is good for 40 more years or more.
the solar stacks
This is where & why we need some serious private investment into a small scale solution.
If a $4,000 wind solution is too expensive how is a $8,500 1kW PV even a consideration?
Even at my bulk price, a 1kW CSP solar-thermal-electric is gonna run $3,000...
Eventually, we'll get that down... maybe an in a few years when inflation & oil pushes PV to $9 or $10.
But you're right, *passive* solutions are generally the cheapest and the best way to get started!
-----
p.s. the location of this reply in the column should be 3rd... not 2nd under the title post
Frank, Sounds like you haven't been reading all the great info here at fixing the planet. You can go after the low hanging low cost items first. You did that with a $3 CFL that can pay for itself in 1 year.
Next try simple solar screens to block the heat in summer, take them off in winter. Extra insulation, plug leaks, more efficient appliances as you replace them.
For wind try the $700 dollar 500 watt south west wind air-x
| Product Name ↓ | Volts | Watts | Price | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
 |
Southwest Wind Power AIR Industrial 12V | 12 V | 400 W | $768.99 |
solar stacks
More insight for my comment to athena (below)
This little windmill is a perfect example... look at the unit price <$2/W that's pretty cool...
Q: So why aren't folks beating down the doors to buy these little dervishes?
A: Because they don't fit the needs of enough customers.
I'm not knocking the product, I'm commenting on folks.
Could we build one just like it? Sure! probably cost $175,000, maybe more... why? Well molds for the shell and prop are probably the single big ticket items... the gearbox & bearings... the generator magnets might be COTS, so are the pipe/stand and the foundation.
So Southwest Wind has managed to create a product, (kudos) but at 400W the impact has gotta be pretty small... I don't know but I seriously doubt that this product line makes it to the 100 kilowatt mark monthly (I'm only speculating here) Hardly a significant environmental impact, not even a drop in the bucket really.
And about wind in general, as I look outside my window, not a single leaf is even wobbling. Yet the sun it out and shining brightly.
exactly, use what resource you have. why use wind when you have solar or geo-thermal or small hydro .
By the way southwest wind sells giga watts of all sizes of these great wind generator. some are for small use. some are very large. Again you use what is the correct size.
Why use a hummer to pick up a loaf of bread. !
the solar stacks
Many of us make our own power, we even make more than we need and get credit for it while heling our utility be cleaner.
I also donate 7 blocks ,about $30 a month to generate 700 KWh more energy that is renewable through my utility , I need to make up for my neighbors who don't get it yet.
the solar stacks
Frank
At present individuals do not produce their own energy. They pay a company to make the stuff and they buy a share of it.
Stop looking for a personal solution and get your whole neighbourhood to buy one of ct's solar thermal systems. Maybe he will tell you how much he would charge to set up a community generating plant.
I've asked several times but he just ignors me.
<shocked noises> Whaddya mean??? I don't ignore you :^)
All I've ever said is that we can do systems for ~$3/Watt and deliver energy for $90/MWh.
As much as PV has been commoditized at ~$10/W & $350/MW, we've got it beat by 3:1 to 4:1 on the price/performance chart.
All you have to tell me is how much power you need (Watts peak) and you can compute the cost directly. How much land or roof you've got available, may limit the available power you to less than you want, but we'll gladly cover as much as we're allowed to.
ct
I need an objective that is not ridiculously small but not so large that I'll never raise the funding. There has to be an efficiency threshold for readily available solar/thermal components.
Can we design a machine shed (barn) for my brother's little golf course - straw bale - earth bermed - well insulated sort of thing, with a sloping south wall for your system.
Now, - how big do I build it and how much will it cost to put on a solar/thermal demo?
Can we build something to supply home heating/electricity for a normal home during sunny periods with unused capacity pumping water to a higher potential or charging batteries for electric golf carts or grass cutters?
Do I need 10 friends with $2,000 or 49 with$1,000.
Hey Chris,
You've hit the nail on the head! Big enough, but there is almost no such thing as too big once the capacity to manufacture "the first one" is in place.
See I'm not thinking about heating or storing energy. Both add significanlty to the TCO and operating expense. Could it make sense in the future? Sure, but not today.
Could I design a one-off system, sure, but you can't afford it, no one can. It's a lot of $$$ for a modest return. Everything else you mention about the barn design is cost effective, a unique system isn't.
The cost for a demo is > 90% of the cost of building the machine to make them all. That's not money well spent. See the technology is mature, and no one can question whether or not it will work, it will.
So for "Can we build something... ?" Yes we can; No it's not economical. I've met a lot of "inventors" developers, and designers who would
promise anything for the sake of being busy, and that's all they've
accomplished... They've kept busy, delivering over-priced,
under-performing technology, while growing fat & lazy.
We need 10 friends with $25,000 to make a single descent 'demo', for a proof of the already proven concept at $25/Watt... or 50 friends with $100,000 to tool up panels and engines, and hit the ground running at $3/Watt installed.
This is classic manufacturing. Any descent mechanic can build a car from the ground up, if he has the tools... But, each and every single car will still cost $150,000. Once we build the factory, then the systems are affordable.
Paul
I can't believe that you have not established a report with a Prof. - Schools get all kinds of R&D grants and they know how to apply for them - it's a career for them. You are creating jobs and you are starting a manufacturing company - you need a business plan when you go looking for a loan. Borrow with personal notes, 10% two years with no payment for two years, - repayment at end of the two years principal and interest in ten equal monthly payments. After two years, these creditors are "old friends" so you can pay them off with equity or you find a new "investor" to take the position left by the first investor. It's a variation on our Canada Pension Plan (also known as the Canada Ponzi Plan) You really only need one backer and if the U.S. Gov won't support you I have some friends in Hong Kong. An electric car manufacturer has taken his idea to Israel.
I rattled off the above last night before bed. This morning I see the post with an option to edit, so here's the extra.
California, Florida, Spain, Algeria are already building solar/thermal generating systems. If you have a better any part of it - why aren't they talking to you? Have you not approached them? Are you concerned that you will lose a patenable improvement that you can not afford to patent?
I've spent the morning reviewing another earth policy site and once again I finish with an understanding that the world is a basket case,- and once again no one has any idea HOW to get the rubber on the road.
Then there are those who have real answers to the problems, but are unable, for personal, financial or social position to implement them.
If you really have something to save the world you will not be allowed to produce it and keep it for yourself - but we all do - I have no intention of telling anyone about how to recover 95% of all heat from all ventilation air - until I can afford to hire a legal firm full time to protect my wonderful "invention".
Hang in there, something has got to give.
Hey Chris,
Schools are ... well, let's just say a social club. They help their own, not outsiders. We were walked into the Physics dept of a major university last fall, by the local Director of Economic Development and the Ph.D. tried to "take over"... Wouldn't sign the NDA, and tried to hand documents off to his flunkies. He promised a report, but conveniently "forgot" then claimed to never have made the promise... You should hear the tape, I wish I could've seen his face. 5 minutes of him describing the action items and the contents... Plus how his department would be completely involved...
You're correct, but my pockets aren't that deep for loans. If they were I wouldn't need the loan.
Believe me I know who's installing and how much. I can also say there's nothing 'new' about any of the sites. All 1980 technology with minor incremental updates.
Approaching VCs is like swimming with sharks wearing ground-beef cologn. Did I tell you about the ass that was scouting for Ormat at the trade show 2 years ago. This freelance contractor, is trying to get the recipe for the secret sauce right on the show floor... It was like being grilled by "Comic-book Guy" from the Simpson's. How about the pair that promised to present us to their cadre of qualified investors but needed $5-10 grand for due diligence...
I don't really want to keep this thing for myself... If I did then I would've proceeded very differently. I know that inventors generally come out with only a few %... that's ok. I refuse to come out with *nothing*. I've got certain skills, I need complementary skills in the team.
What I do have is investors ready to jump in once they see market potential. But they lack the guts to fund the development unless they see the exit clearly marked. More herd animal mentality, I suppose?
That's why I need to sell 10, or 100 sites... If I can show $5-10MM in binding letters then they'll fund the development. The letters would only have to be provisional on seeing a working pilot site... No one wants to be first; I can understand that.
With the letter they'd agree to purchase only after witnessing the successful operation of the pilot... No pilot, no obligation. But, when we demonstrate a working model, and all the criteria are met, then the letter would be as binding as a PO. I can't offer a softer sell than that.
Perhaps what I really need *is* a hard-boiled salesman that can actually convert some paper for me. Of course it's gotta be on the come...
So it comes back around to convincing another person that the technology is sound... That's never been difficult as long as the person I'm trying to convince has a few healthy brain cells.
Hey, do ya think that if I invent some indecipherable "techie" sounding terms and obscure "scientific" principles like "zero-point energy" maybe that'll convince the "dumb-masses" that I'm legit? ;^) sorry...
In the mean time I'll just keep plugging along...
P.S. Anybody interested in the secret to making 30MW of solar panels every month?
OK ct
Define your market. I believe that your market is rural community rather than downtown businesses, and I think there are more little groups (20 home size) who will buy a system for their own use or farm than larger communities who are tied into other infrastructure.
Choosing the size to build is a crap shoot, but should be influenced also by other manufacturing cost/yield etc. You get to pick it. When competition comes along and builds smaller or larger systems they hopefully will make less profit because they will not sell as many units.
Then give me a sales brochure featuring your system for your chosen market and collect $1,000 deposits for future delivery.
I can not sell something if I don't know what it looks like.
For 20 homes, the average system would be in the 40kW range. It's not like over-subscribing bandwidth... fuses blow when power systems are overloaded.
The problem is that if the system is isolated it's way over sized, and most of the energy just goes down the tubes... It's gotta be grid tied.
You're right about downtown businesses too. Unless the store has 2500 sq ft or more the fixed costs get harder to swallow. I'm not saying it can't work, but the massive advantage over PV starts to diminish, because the the fixed BOS (switchgear, breaker box, electrical hookup, metering, licensing) costs for both PV & Solar Thermal are about the same.
I here ya.
Crude oil tops $123 and will mostly likely continue to climb with ease. The oil execs stay rich and us regular folks get squeezed, thereby paying more for EVERYTHING. I just traded in "THE BEAST", my Ford Expedition(12mpg) for a Saturn(25mpg) and have every light in my house using cfls and solar lights outside. I want to take the next step and generate some of my own energy. What I would really like to see are energy making devices like solar panels and wind turbines to drop in price or at least be reasonably priced enough that the average Joe can invest in producing his own energy. A system like what PACWIND makes is great but at $4,000, it's financially not that easy to just run out and buy one. Now imagine if a company could create a system for $400. That's a price range that I think lots more average Joes would really go for. I believe there's lots of demand and interest to make a change that will make things greener for both the environment and the wallet. I would just hope that industries can make their alternative energy equipment more reasonably priced. Excuse me for my rant..
Frank
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First I should state that I'm encouraged by all the visitors here and I appreciate every Watt of power that's conserved, instead of wasted! But I've gotta ask...
Where is everyone else? Are the rest of the people really that disconnected? Do they just not care? Do the simply not understand?
I'm simply running out of steam to continue the fight. Somebody, please come tag my out. Is there anyone out there that knows someone that's willing to take the plunge and invest in the technology?
I'm hoping to find an interested & active partner with the foresight & comprehension to recognize the inevitable need for massive solar power infrastructure.
Perhaps most folks are just content to handover an ever increasing portion of their hard earned $$$ for the luxury of electric power. If that's the case perhaps a representative of that silent majority would be so kind to stand up and tell me why the cost of energy is so unimportant?
Thanks for reading my ramble!